Medic Spec Nerfs

[smuggers]

Uh oh, time to get ganked!

Okay! Let's look at Medic Spec for a moment. So, it's basically the only specialize with flat stat increases (if there's another one, let me know!) and it buffs two of the most useful stats in the game, Speed and Agility. Speed by +11 and Agility by +10. On its own, this boon isn't insane but it is still very powerful - now, here's my issue with it. The agility buff is equal to Mangekyou Sharingan and the speed buff is higher than getting High-Tier Core Speed. Then comes in the issue of stacking;

The amount of Uchiha Medics is staggering, isn't it?

I mean, can you blame them? +9 Agility on Sharingan 3, +10 on MS? Throw in a High-Tier Reflex core and hey presto, +30 Reflex. Now, this is punishing for people that haven't got Lightning Reflex themselves. Example; you're a Momochi! You've capped Agility, you're 210 RPL (a base cap of 70 Agility!) but your high-tier core went into Strength, or Speed, or anything else! You've got 75 Agility base - sure, you can make in-battle buffs to raise it higher, but anyone can do that so we won't be counting that. So, 75. Sounds like a lot, huh? Let's look at Uchiha. 210 RPL for the first example, 70 base. With all the bonuses you've got from Sharingan, Medic and your high-tier core, you're at 100! With 25 Agility over him, he can't even hit you.

But let's strip away the Reflex. Or, let's say the Momochi has Lightning Reflexes to. He's at 80. The Uchiha can flawless dodge every attack, and he can't even partial dodge theirs.

Now let's strip away the Uchiha's medic boosts. With 10 Agility over the Momochi, they can Partial Dodge, and the Momochi can partial dodge them. If they've both invested into Lightning Reflex, and they're on the same RPP, should this not be the case? The Uchiha still has the decisive advantage, by a large margin, and the Momochi can only barely partially evade their attacks.

Uchiha Medics are abundant, and for good reason - it's too powerful.

And that isn't even to mention the speed buff, which is also useful for cancelling out handseals - ironically, Agility and Speed are the exact stats you need to stop Ninjutsu users from fighting you!

My suggestion to remedy this is simple; swap the Agility buff to Endurance. They'll receive their speed increases and be slightly more durable. There's no reason for this meta to exist when there's such an easy solution. The players that went Medic purely for the agility increases will complain, yes, but that's their fault for taking something knowing full-well that it shouldn't exist. No other specialization receives stat boosts and I wouldn't expect them too, I just don't want people taking Medic purely for the stat boosts rather than actually wanting to play a doctor.

[llamalord]

Instead of consistently trying to nerf one meta why don't we look at the fact that its inherently impossible to achieve more agility outside of going for a certain spec. Perhaps the remedy here is to give everyone an equal change to grab more agility across the board instead of limiting it to one or two avenues. Turning agility into endurance as a medic profession doesn't make sense regardless-medics aren't durable, they're trained to be agile. Not to mention in order to even get those extra agility buffs, you've got to drop a whopping 80 pp. So I think its well deserved what boosts they get 

[smuggers]

It's not well deserved, and here's why.

Medics aren't meant to be strong. They're meant to be medics, healers. They need to be durable in order to fight through a battle and keep their allies healthy.

Medic is the only spec which grants stat bonuses. You aren't meant to go medic to be OP in a fight, that's exactly why they're doing it.

Additionally, you're one of the people that's using this meta, being an Uchiha Medic, so your view is biased on the whole thing. Medics would still get speed, meaning they can traverse the battlefield the same as they could before, and be a slight bit more durable. They have no reason to have increased attack/reflexes.

You aren't just putting in 80 pp for stat boosts. Medics get other effects for -healing-, but the fact you're focusing only on the stats it gives proves you don't really care about playing a medic. You just want stat boosts.

[randomninja]

^^^

[mrexp]

Nerfing Medic agility/spd bonus would kill all the support medic, and not affect Uchiha Medic as much. Reason? If you spend around 170 pp to be a support medic you won't have enough stats to support people till the 170/180. Regarding the argument that they are "too strong", most of their techs have low cap (50 and 40 dmg at 70+ control) and, unless u are a clan that gets free elemental prof, you won't have as many tech like other people.
Most build are capable of dishing out 100+ spd Ranged attacks, while medic tech are usually either supportive or capped at agility and CQC (unable to clash).
More importantly, the issue you are bringing out can be resolved by simply getting stronger buff such as CS or Sage Mode.

[smuggers]

Okay! Let's break down what you're saying. With the 'not effecting Uchiha Medic as much', that's simply not true. They'll experience the same drop in Agility and, hence, effectiveness. A Medic Uchiha at my current PP can be 20 Reflex above me, and that's if we've both purchased Lightning Reflex. It won't kill support medics, as support medics aren't there to dish out high agility attacks, they're there to heal. You'd still have the speed, and a bit more endurance to boot, and if you've taken care of your agility then it won't be too hard to partial dodge most melee attacks. Speed allows you to dodge ranged attacks which, with your speed boost, you should be able to get away from people fairly easily!

As for your second point, of their techniques having low caps, a lot of techniques are capped at 50 and 40 at 70+ control! I've received every Suiton jutsu pre-A Rank and not a single one of them has a cap of 60. However, it's to be expected that medical techniques have lower damage - why?

You're medics. You're healers. You can touch someone and restore their hit points. You aren't there to deal damage, you're there to restore it.

"Most builds are capable of dishing out 100+ spd Ranged attacks", hm? I don't really see the relevance of this. I've met medics that, at B-Rank, are throwing out 85 Agility attacks to utilize poison to root others. Or medics that are utilizing their Agility bonuses to punch at 89 speed to stun for two turns! Medics are incredibly powerful fighters as it stands, and they'd continue to be powerful if the agility boost was altered to endurance, just not as dominantly so. As for those dishing out 100+ spd Ranged attacks, I won't name a specific character, but a Day 1 with a method to add +10 to their Jutsu Speed/Power for free in every attack requires an A-Rank to just push past 100, for an exubrant chakra cost I might add. If someone's throwing 100+ speed Ninjutsu at you, there's no doubt in my mind that they're nin-tai/ken (which utilize agility!) or they're A-Ranks.

As for the last point, CS and Sage Mode. Let's take a look at them real quick.

Okay! So. It requires a Geneticist and an Advanced Fuuinjutsu user. And, if we actually look at the stats, neither of them give +11 speed or +10 agility. Yes, they give other stats, but this isn't a passive boost (something you can utilize in your base form!) and agility/speed are two of the most important stats in the game. Additional stamina and control/strength, depending on the Sage Mode, yes, but not quite as high as Medic's boosts! Not to mention the IC ramifications, in that whoever applies it to you can control you and you slowly lose your mind! However, if you want to play a medic, you could perhaps get Geneticist and receive a Curse Seal of your own! On top of the current boost medic applies, spooky.~


Not to mention the fact that Sage requires you to spend AT LEAST 20 PP and 8 RPP (This is by acquiring the lowest rank Summon and then the Legendary-Rank which grants Sage Mode, which I'm not even sure is possible!), the stats similarly don't grant you as high Agility. Not to mention, Sage Mode has a 5 turn limit, whereas the Medic boost is passive.

Additionally, these are canonical jutsu that people have to work for! There's also nothing stopping a medic from getting either of them, meaning the point's entirely invalidated from the start! If anything, it's easier for a Medic to receive Curse Mark as they're the ones that have to apply it! Forgive me for the long post, I just needed to address everything you were saying.

[llamalord]

Lmfao I understand the salt-but regardless the combat medic tree shouldn't suffer as a whole. Am I bias? Sure-was I one of the same ones complaining about it before I switched over? Absolutely. Giving medics endurance stupid, when has a medic ever focused on endurance? Yes medics can be strong, just because they are a medic doesn't mean they are somehow 'weaker'then other people. Hence the term combat medic-they are meant to be agile for a reason-not physically strong nor durable(Hence the reason chakra enhanced strength was created). Combat medics role in a battlefield is to be agile enough to keep from getting killed while simultaneously tending to people on the battlefield.(Not sure if you missed the way Tsunade trained but here u are) If an Uchiha grabbed medic and is seen as op because they can stack sharingan? Oh well, oops? Maybe Uchiha should've been kept locked from the beginning. In nerfing combat medic all you'd be doing is nerfing all the other medics who actually NEED the agility because they don't have sharingan.(As Mrexp has explained above) You're failing to see the bigger picture I believe and to me your concern seems to be a "Uchiha combat medic" concern and not just a combat medic concern

Tl;DR no medics aren't meant to be strong, they are fast AND agile.

And who are you to say I've obtained the tree only for strength? I like a medic jutsu kit-they have tons of fun jutsu to play around with. Get outta here forcing your assumptions on my intentions

[randomninja]

I think smuggers had a lot of great points but i wanna stress again the fact that many uchiha medics are just going medical spec to stack more agility. They dont actually wanna be medics.

[llamalord]

There are some good points. But inherently that's a problem with the influx of Uchiha, not the existence of combat medic. The normal combat medics will suffer more than the uchihas that get nerfed, that's a garuntee.

[smuggers]

Okay. And do Taijutsu Specs not train to be strong with their fists. Do Ninjutsu specs not train to harness their chakra control? Where are -their- buffs to stats? Since when did becoming a medic entitle you to become better than everyone else at speed and reflexes on the battlefield. Everyone trained their reflexes, not just Tsunade. Her training would be equal to capping out your Agility if you were looking at it from the perspective of NC. And Chakra-Enhanced Strength is just that, your strength. Durability isn't something that was enhanced, and I'm trying to be fair by granting a bonus to Endurance rather than nothing at all. Saying 'Tsunade trained her agility' isn't a good excuse for the current state of medic. I've already explained why it isn't fair to other players and, frankly, any Uchiha Medic -knows- what they're doing. They just don't want their build to be nerfed.

And as I've said already, this extends to ALL Medics, but there are far too many Uchiha Medics. Wonder why that is? Because the buffs are just too enticing! I've seen many people go medic simply for the Agility/Speed boosts, and not actually wanting to be healers. Your point that 'medics are fast AND agile' doesn't stand up because while that may be the case, that can be done by simply capping your stats like everyone else.~

[llamalord]

It does quite indeed stand to reason that medics are fast and agile lmfao....It's literally and entire style of training they devote themselves too :lol:. "Okay. And do Taijutsu Specs not train to be strong with their fists. Do Ninjutsu specs not train to harness their chakra control? Where are -their- buffs to stats? Since when did becoming a medic entitle you to become better than everyone else at speed and reflexes on the battlefield."

I've previously mentioned that stat boosts pertaining to agility/speed are sparce amongst other fields..this is an inconsistency with the perk system as a whole I've been complaining about for awhile. No, they don't want their build nerfed, NOBODY would want their build nerfed. The normal combat medics don't deserve to get their build nerfed however. Yes everyone trained their reflexes-but combat medics do so even further, don't know how that point was missed. Every issue can't be simply resolved via nerfing one tree. Perhaps all trees should be looked at in relativity-perhaps the way agility is dispersed amongst trees should be looked at if this is that big of an issue.

[mrexp]

Sage Mode is acquired also through Geneticist. You are trying to nerf the whole specc because of Agility stacking and you put the Uchiha as an example. CS gives enough stats and lasts for the whole duration of the fight. Moreover, giving CS is harder as a Geneticist than it is as a Fuuinjutus Master as you don't need anyone's help.
If we are talking about normal medics, on a same level of PP with same stat investment, the medic will have 10 and 11 agility more than the opponent. The thing is, the medic spent around 90 pp at least if they planned on min maxing and just getting the stat boost. Now, which build would go well with a minmaxed tech such as Medic? Ninjutsu or Nintai, with the latter gaining more advantage from the bonus in agility.
Ninjutsu-wise you will still need to have high control and some elemental perks, but will have higher caps. As for Nintai you have the ability to have uncapped speed, this allows for C and B rank to reach higher SPD than the normal Ninjutsu, but doesn't make that much of a difference when someone has A or S ranks.
Though, on parity of PP it's really hard for one side to have jutsu with less spd. In fact, when talking about Ninjutsu the control builds have a higher advantage from the C to B rank margin of PP due to the higher efficiency of Elemental Perk + Chakra perks cost. +8 overcap +15 control and jutsu that cap at around 60 spd, making it go up to 68 spd when compared to the 60-70 spd that people will have at that level which is obtained from their 40-50 spd +20 agi. Moreover at that margin the damage will be higher from the Ninjutsu spec as they usually can overcap things at 58 dmg or even higher depending on the jutsu (being that u have higher amount of pp to put on elemental you will have a higher amount of powerful jutsu from C to B rank of pp).
The question doesn't change that much at A to S rank pp. With A rank and S rank having extremely high caps and particular effects and bonus that can easily overshadow a jutsu with agi cap.
Now, regarding dodging I say you are right, +10/11 are good for dodging, moreso against Ninjutsu as you need +10 spd. Though as I said before, spd caps from control are enough to hit pretty much everyone from your spd range.
If you are fighting someone who has +20 spd than you, and that can full dodge everything u have, then you are clearly fighting someone above your league.

Now the problem here lies on full support builds, with a medic that fully specc into healing etc.. just buyin all the medical perks will cost more than 170pp, if you add the cores it will hit around 200. If you nerf their agi/spd then they will be even weaker than that, as most healing caps at 20 or 25 at most, and with no ability to retaliate.

Regarding the jutsu with 2 turn stun, that tech was faulty, not the build itself. The people who faced it were against someone who was probably 70 pp higher than them.

[randomninja]

how about this....you give medics buffs that -actually- are relevent to their JOB, and not to  "Lol im going to min max my stats"

This way, ppl going meta build wont wanna do it while ppl who actually -wanna- be medics will be ok with it. For example, here's something i made up on the top off my head.

"Hippocratic Oath - This medic has taken the oath to do anything they can to heal people. They gain a +5 in agility and a +6 in speed for the sake of removing an injured person out of harms way." (Only applies when removing someone from the field of battle, or attempting to get to an injured person)

"Combat Medical Training - Although medic's devote their life in the pursuit of learning how to heal people, this medic has been trained in traversing the terrain, and to defend themselves in close quarters, should they need to. They gain a +6 in agility and +6 in speed for the sake of defending themselves, a knocked out person in combat, and retreating from the field. (Stacks with Hippocratic Oath)

This way, people who are medics won't get a boost in stats to go -start- fights. That's not what they are trained for. As medics its in their doctrine to be in the back lines and help injured people, so it makes sense, at least imo, that they only get stat boosts for that very same reason. 

[smuggers]

Random's correct.

Unfortunately, your arguments seem to be quite invalid - let me explain. Llama's entirely based on 'let's just buff everyone!' when that would just ruin balance more. Just reign medics in, that's good enough and it's not 'ruining their build', it just means they have as much stats as everyone else.

On the topic of Ninjutsu, let's look at that. A normal B-Rank caps at 40-50. Let's say you're a medic and you're 180 PP. 60 Base, 70 with Medic, 75 with Speed, 95 with Shunshin. Even if someone dumps 1000 Chakra into a B-Rank Jutsu to raise its speed with their perks (let's use Hozuki as an example, 300 Chakra for +15 speed, +5 power with two of their perks), they can get +23 on their Jutsu speed. On a normal B-Rank, you aren't going any higher than 73. Meaning a base medic at 180 can just partial dodge/flawless dodge basically any B-Rank at 180. From as early as 120, a medic can be going at 55 base Speed.

And, once more, you guys are focusing solely on the buffs. You keep repeating 'they're sinking 80 points into getting those buffs!' when they're actually spending 35 points on those specific buffs. Those other 45 points are, believe it or not, for -medics-. You guys simply don't care about being medics, you care about getting the buffs and being battlechads. It's so clear that it's somewhat painful. You don't want to heal, you want to fight.

As for the point of 'you just want to nerf it because of Uchiha'! This isn't true - yes, it is a reason, as it contributes to Agi stacking via Sharingan in an incredibly easy way, but that doesn't mean base medic deserves buffs. Medics shouldn't get bonus stats in the first place, you're lucky that they do as this isn't something games usually do. However, you Uchiha (I assume you're both Uchiha, though I won't name names!) are only opposing this due to the agility stacking you're able to do through it.

And, as the last point, mrexp's point on Sage Mode being acquired through geneticist which is, again, a medic thing, doesn't help your case. You guys have plenty of potential to develop CS and Sage Mode to supplement this drop in stats. You just want the easy way out.

[llamalord]